Notre Dame de Paris, 2000

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 04/16/2019 at 13:45 • Filed to: notre dame

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Lanciere’s post inspired me to drag out my album of photos (yes, children, there was a time when pictures were printed on paper and you kept them in a big book called an “album”) from a trip to France and Germany with Mrs. Ttyymmnn back in 2000. I took a ton of pictures there, and this is but a sample. You could (for a fee, surely, but I don’t remember) climb two-thirds of the way up the south tower, and that’s were I took the gargoyle and other shots, including the now-destroyed spire.

Now I want to look through all the rest of the pictures from that trip. We flew to CDG, then did a few days in Paris before renting a car. We drove north to the Normandy invasion beaches, then east to Strasbourg. Then on to Munich for three days and then  flew out of MUC. Fantastic trip.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 13:49

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Very pretty!  Glad you had a chance to visit

ttyymmnn > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 04/16/2019 at 13:52

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Yeah, me too. It’s a very humbling place. But then again, I’m a historian at heart. TBH, I was more blown away by Reims, and even St. Denis. And the real jewel of cathedrals in Paris is Sainte-Chapelle. It’s like walking into a jewelry box. And it was at exactly that point in our vacation when my camera died and I had to go buy another one. So I got exactly one photo of the stained glass, and this isn’t it.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 13:56

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Growing up (I'm only 27, but feel so old) I wanted to be a History teacher. But I fucked up and became an adjuster

ttyymmnn > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 04/16/2019 at 13:58

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I wanted to be a cartographer. But my grades were so bad that I didn’t get accepted as a geography major. I found that the only thing I could do was play trumpet, so I went with that. I’ve enjoyed it, but I think I also would've been very happy making maps. Probably would have paid better, too. 

Spanfeller is a twat > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 14:01

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As much as I dislike organized religions, the architecture behind some temples is fantastic in a way very few buildings can procure it .

ttyymmnn > Spanfeller is a twat 04/16/2019 at 14:04

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In his landmark television series “ Civilization ,” standing before Notre-Dame, the art historian Kenneth Clark asked: “What is civilization? I don’t know. I can’t define it in abstract terms — yet. But I think I can recognize it when I see it.”

He turned toward the cathedral: “And I am looking at it now.” ( NYT )

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 04/16/2019 at 14:09

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I fucked up and became an adjuster

lol

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 14:13

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Nice memories. I’m so glad that the pietà was spared. 

Tapas > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 14:19

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These pictures are stunning!

But I really don’t think one of the richest organized religions with their own country and history of abuse and pain infliction to the masses needs $340 million plus in donations for a singed tower.

They can afford to re build themselves AND legitimately fight world hunger and poverty, if they so chose.

DipodomysDeserti > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 14:21

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I think my favorite description of civilization and its juxtaposition with culture come from an “erthiest”. Good ol’ Cactus Ed.

“ To make the distinction unmistakably clear: Civilization is the vital force in human history; culture is that inert mass of institutions and organizations which accumulate around and tend to drag down the advance of life ; Civilization is Giordano Bruno facing death by fire; culture is the Cardinal Bellarmino , after ten years of inquisition, sending Bruno to the stake in the Campo di Fiori; Civilization is Sartre ; culture Cocteau ; Civilization is mutual aid and self-defense; culture is the judge, the lawbook and the forces of Law & Ordure (sic); Civilization is uprising, insurrection, revolution; culture is the war of state against state, or of machines against people, as in Hungary and Vietnam; Civilization is tolerance, detachment and humor, or passion, anger, revenge; culture is the entrance examination, the gas chamber, the doctoral dissertation and the electric chair; Civilization is the Ukrainian peasant Nestor Makhno fighting the Germans, then the Reds, then the Whites, then the Reds again; culture is Stalin and the Fatherland; Civilization is Jesus turning water into wine; culture is Christ walking on the waves; Civilization is a youth with a Molotov cocktail in his hand; culture is the Soviet tank or the L.A. cop that guns him down; Civilization is the wild river; culture, 592,000 tons of cement; Civilization flows; culture thickens and coagulates, like tired, sick, stifled blood.”

ttyymmnn > Tapas 04/16/2019 at 14:30

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Not gonna argue with you.

facw > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 14:30

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Well it’s not a cathedral, but but beyond that there’s no question that it’s a spectacular building, quite possibly the most beautiful I’ve been in.

My art history professor on the other hand criticized our class for all the people (me included) who went all the way to Paris, but couldn’t make the short trip from there to Chartes, often considered the iconic Gothic cathedral :

ttyymmnn > DipodomysDeserti 04/16/2019 at 14:32

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culture is the entrance examination, the gas chamber, the doctoral dissertation and the electric chair

Having written a doctoral dissertation, I would have to agree with him. That’s good stuff.

ttyymmnn > facw 04/16/2019 at 14:36

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I chose to go to St. Denis, as it is considered the first example of completely Gothic architecture. It did not disappoint.

And yes, Sainte-Chapelle is a chapel, not a cathedral. 

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 14:43

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ttyymmnn traveling to France: cathedral pictures

Me, traveling to France:

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 04/16/2019 at 14:49

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Well, in all fairness, I did take this somewhere between Strasbourg and Munich.

Thomas Donohue > Tapas 04/16/2019 at 15:20

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Well, if they fix this cathedral....then they will have to fix the other French cathedrals (100+) and then everyone else will say “Hey, Pope.....our cathedral needs work too!” and next thing you know 3,000+ cathedrals have scaffolding, and you’ve written out a trillion dollars in checks.

Do you know how much priceless art and jewels they would have to sell to raise a trillion dollars? (I’d try to do the math, but it’s hard to subt ract from a net worth of infinity. )

Easier to hold out the basket and have your base pay for it.

Chariotoflove > Tapas 04/16/2019 at 15:21

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That’s not really how it works. See the Church has a lot of assets, but they are mostly tied up in real estate, artwork, and other historical, physical assets. The idea that the Catholic Church is a huge multinational corporation with deep pockets is a myth. The vast majority of the Church’s income relies on the generosity of parishioners. That money is mostly spent on hospitals, education, charities, and operating expenses for parishes and religious orders.

Each diocese is a separate financial entity that provides for itself and the programs and charities of that diocese. And the Vatican isn’t some sugar daddy with deep pockets either.  It struggles to maintain its own physical assets.

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 15:38

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I was there about 15 years ago.  Much of this stuff was already walled off for renovation.

ttyymmnn > Chariotoflove 04/16/2019 at 15:42

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Well, it took a few hundred years to build it....

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 15:48

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Just a few.

Tapas > Chariotoflove 04/16/2019 at 15:56

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I am not aware of the intricacies of how they operate. But I can see how most of their wealth is tied into non-liquid assets, which have a very niche and limited market, if they do decide to liquidate.

I know its not as simple as cashing out your savings account.

But I should also mention that my comments apply to all organized religions.

I think more good can be done if all organized religions strategically downsized their valuable assets and expenditure, at the expense of their future sustenance, in favor of a better future for humanity.

Tapas > Thomas Donohue 04/16/2019 at 15:59

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Yeah, i t definitely is easier because it is at no or little cost to them. I can see why they chose to go that way.

At any given time, there will be countless Christian C athedrals and Monuments in various stages of disrepair just because of their sheer number and age. It is not a new problem for them.

Chariotoflove > Tapas 04/16/2019 at 16:24

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That’s a common thought, and one I’ve had on occasion. But I’ve come to realize that part of any of those assets serve to draw people together and inspire them as a worldwide church community.

If you’re interested and have time , here is just one website post from a Catholic that tries to describe the non-monetary value of the Church’s treasures. T he relevant quote I picked from that:

Some people see the beautiful Catholic art and say, “sell it and give the money to the poor!” (Jn 12:5)

Judas said “we could get 300 denari for that perfume and give it to the poor” (Jn 12:5) but Jesus corrected him, “The poor we will always have with us.”(Jn 12:3-8) Jesus’ words sound cold and cruel toward the poor. But He saw that this valuable perfume (art for the nose) was being used to build up the kingdom of God. He could also see into Judas’ heart.How do we reconcile Jesus’ words, “the poor we will always have with us” with his words to the rich man, “go and sell everything you own and give it to the poor.” (Lk 18:22) On the surface they appear in conflict . The difference is that the rich man’s valuables did not build up the kingdom of God while the perfume (art for the nose) did. It would be used at Jesus’ burial. The Church could sell off all its art. These beautiful contributions to our faith and culture could be put in the back rooms of private collectors’ studios. This would be comparable to Evangelicals closing down their recording studios, selling the recording equipment and stop making great Christian Music. We could redirect all this money to the poor. If the Church got fair market value for all its art and property there would be no more than a couple of dollars for each poor person in the world. Then it would be spent and we would have no art to enrich our faith and evangelize new Christians. Not only that but there would be no Church property and no Churches. We don’t think this would be in service to God.

I’m Catholic, and this is some of the food for thought I chew on as I try to relate the Church to my personal faith life.

Tapas > Chariotoflove 04/16/2019 at 16:45

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I am an idealist and I realize that this thought is far from practical.

I also hold a less than favorable view of organized religion. But I have nothing against people of any faith. So hope I haven't caused you or anyone any offense.

I understand that a ton of people hold their faith very close to their heart. It is impossible to be pragmatic to a point of making such an extreme and cold decision, so I can’t reasonably expect that from any one.

But I hope that we can find a balance between preserving all that is good about religion (in the hands of the church’s or private ownership), while also pushing for selfless contributions from liquidation.

Chariotoflove > Tapas 04/16/2019 at 17:00

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Oh no, you haven’t offended me. You just tapped into issues I think many of us think about , including me. How does personal faith relate to its earthly expression in a church community? This is the kind of self examination we should do.

And pragmatism is important. In my parish, we are heavily involved in raising  scholarships for the school, charities and outreach to sick and poor.  We really have to think about what is important.

ranwhenparked > Tapas 04/16/2019 at 19:55

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Except nearly  all religious buildings built in France prior to 1905 are actually owned by the government.

MiniGTI - now with XJ6 > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 20:22

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That’s a great show. In the same speech he said you could think of the carved head of a Viking ship as being just as terrifying to the people of the time as the periscope of a nuclear submarine.

Tapas > ranwhenparked 04/16/2019 at 21:16

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I didn't know that!

ttyymmnn > MiniGTI - now with XJ6 04/16/2019 at 22:57

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I need to see if I can find it. Sounds like something I would enjoy.

MiniGTI - now with XJ6 > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 23:31

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Oh it’s brilliant, I’m sure you’d like it. Netflix has it on DVD which I’ve ripped; Our little tiny library where we used to love had it in the dusty VHS section years ago ; I can send it to you if you want.

MiniGTI - now with XJ6 > ttyymmnn 04/16/2019 at 23:33

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https://www.amazon.com/Civilisation-Complete-BBC-DVD-Box/dp/B00077284C

Also available on Britbox

ttyymmnn > MiniGTI - now with XJ6 04/17/2019 at 00:02

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Thanks. I’ll pick up that DVD.

MiniGTI - now with XJ6 > ttyymmnn 04/17/2019 at 00:06

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I just happened to glance at it again and link I posted was for a set that’s not region 1 so it won’t play in USDM DVD players, so check for other editions.